PDA

View Full Version : CIS-E help.



doppelfaust
2011.01.24, 11:44 AM
My Fox has started acting up recently... Here's some info regarding the systems on the car.

Ignition:
replaced cap and rotor 1 year ago
new plug wires
new plugs
MSD Blaster 2 coil

Fuel:
main fuel pump (high pressure) replaced 2 years ago
fuel filter replaced same time
in tank transfer pump is original
CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)
O2 replaced less than 6 months ago

Air:
K&N panel filter
cut stock air box

I'm having issues with cold start and a strange intermittent issue after she's running. I drive the car 5 days a week to work, the weekend I let her rest. This morning (for example) she cranked, cranked and cranked. After a short time I heard a "backfire" that seemed to come through the intake, I also noticed a small amount of smoke coming out from the corner of the hood (by the airbox). I let it sit, turned the key a few times to prime the fuel, cranked and the car came to life. When it did start the idle was very lopey, it seemed like there was excess fuel in the cylinders or something. I had to rev the car in order for the idle to finally mellow out. Now, this is new for today... I back out of my driveway and the car dies. It takes several tries but the car starts and I drive on my way. About three blocks from my house the car dies and it will not restart. Push it about a block to get into a parking lot and attempt several times to get it restarted. I get it started and the idle is inconsistent, if I keep the revs up slightly it seems to run with no issues. I release the throttle to let the car return to idle and it dies. Attempt several times to restart the car and it backfired like a gunshot. Call the wife and explain the situation and she comes with a gas can, we leave the car for about 10 minutes to get gas to see if I was out gas. We return, I put 2 gallons in and the car starts with no issue. I run to the gas station to fill up the tank, it only takes 3.5 gallons, so I had gas. The car gets me to work and I have no issues.

Consistent problems I can diagnose but this one has me stumped. I've checked for major vacuum leaks or loose connections and can't find anything.

The second issue is after running for several minutes, it takes me about 10 minutes to get to the freeway from my house. After being on the freeway for about 15 minutes my car will sometimes go into a "limp mode." I can't rev over 3,000 and throttle response is non-existent. After a few minutes it seems the car clears out whatever the issue was and the throttle response and revs seem to return to normal.

I'm at my wits end, the plan is Megasquirt but that's not in the cards for a little while. If someone could puzzle this one over and just give me some ideas on where to look. I've got a DPR test harness, would it be worth while connecting this while starting? What numbers should I be seeing? I set the amerage at the DPR over the summer and adjusted timing and the car ran like a top. Could I rig up the test harness and my multimeter to monitor my amperage as I'm driving?

Thanks for your help to anyone that can provide some insight!

en318ispdx
2011.01.24, 13:25 PM
Does it have a cold start valve?

doppelfaust
2011.01.24, 15:12 PM
Does it have a cold start valve?

Yes.

en318ispdx
2011.01.24, 15:39 PM
Yes.

CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)

CTS = Cold Tart Sensor?

doppelfaust
2011.01.24, 16:19 PM
CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)

CTS = Cold Tart Sensor?

Coolant Temp Sensor.:D Effectively the same idea.

Rabbit 16v
2011.01.24, 19:59 PM
Cold tarts usually just take your money and leave. They have no heart..

but about your car problem. Yes, you can rig it to read while you drive. You just need longer wires ;) a backfire out of the intake indicates a lean condition or a timing problem. Are your ignition components Bosch or OEM equvalent? If not, fix that. No need for shitty parts on your car and i have seen them cause problems many times.

did you thoroughly check the intake boot and other things for possible vacuum leaks?

the DPR current should read 10mA and fluctuating when the car is warm and idling.

since you didnt mention the year of the car, I get to give you shit. So about your 78 audi fox.... :p

Anyway, start with that and report back. yo9u may find nothing of significance, but we need to eliminate the easy stuff.

doppelfaust
2011.01.24, 22:22 PM
Cold tarts usually just take your money and leave. They have no heart..

but about your car problem. Yes, you can rig it to read while you drive. You just need longer wires ;) a backfire out of the intake indicates a lean condition or a timing problem. Are your ignition components Bosch or OEM equvalent? If not, fix that. No need for shitty parts on your car and i have seen them cause problems many times.

did you thoroughly check the intake boot and other things for possible vacuum leaks?

the DPR current should read 10mA and fluctuating when the car is warm and idling.

since you didnt mention the year of the car, I get to give you shit. So about your 78 audi fox.... :p

Anyway, start with that and report back. yo9u may find nothing of significance, but we need to eliminate the easy stuff.

Thanks, its a 1988 Volkswagen Fox.

I thoroughly checked the intake boot for leaks, when I first bought the car I went through and used Shoe Goo on any visible cracks, even if they were not all the way through the boot. Vacuum lines were replaced and are all in tact. Timing was set with a true top dead center, not from the crank. Cam position is correct, as well as the intermediate. I set timing to about 10*... When I originally set the DPR I set it at about 7ma.

Ignition rotor and cap are Bosch, distributor is OEM. Wires and plugs are also Bosch. Obviously coil is NOT Bosch nor OEM.

Rabbit 16v
2011.01.26, 15:46 PM
Ok you mentioned that you put fuel in it and it started right away. did the problem stay away until you used up about 2 gallons of fuel?

doppelfaust
2011.02.25, 08:43 AM
Was just going to update this thread and saw your reply, I immediately filled the car after this happened. Problem didn't return.

I wanted to add however, the warm running issue (no throttle response, won't rev past 3K) seems to be happening when I am low on gas. Could I have a dying transfer pump? I can clearly hear the high pressure pump, its not overly loud, sounds healthy...

trip permit
2011.02.25, 08:47 AM
I would replace transfer pump. I have had the same issue in mk2s where when really low on fuel, while warm, it would have no real throttle response and like you mentioned wouldn't rev past 3k... As soon as you would have half a tank or more it would act "normal" again for the most part until low on fuel.

Rabbit 16v
2011.02.25, 09:54 AM
transfer pump.

doppelfaust
2011.02.25, 10:21 AM
Excellent, I will pick one up.

doppelfaust
2011.03.02, 10:53 AM
Transfer pump replaced, cold starts still suck but my freeway problem is gone.

I have a sneaking suspicion its the coolant temperature sensor or thermotime switch. When it cranks it seems like its not getting fuel... Once the car is started it will drive sluggishly VERY briefly about 5 minutes into my drive, its almost like there is a gap from when the car switches between pulling mixture from the CTS and switches to the O2 sensor. Hopefully that makes sense...

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.02, 10:55 AM
have you double checked the DPR current? engine hot.

twardnw
2011.03.02, 11:11 AM
pop a test-light on the feed to the cold-start injector, should light up while the key is in the 'start' position.

doppelfaust
2011.03.06, 18:55 PM
Hey Chris, feel free to say I told you so. Found a crack on a medium sized vacuum line at the charcoal canister that connected directly to the intake boot... cut the line back to healthy rubber, reconnected and the cold start issue is gone.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.06, 19:07 PM
I told you so :p ha!

Glad you got it figured out :beer:

doppelfaust
2011.03.10, 15:53 PM
So... problem didn't go away. Today I was leaving to run to the store at work. Car started after repeatedly turning the key. Reved, ran for a few seconds and died. (kind of like Dan's truck) I noticed some liquid coming out of the control pressure actuator. It smelled like gasoline. Could I have a failing/failed CPA? What are the symptoms of a failed CPA? I finally got the car started after keeping the gas pedal down and revving the motor so the revs couldn't drop. Slowly let off the gas and the car idled, albeit slightly high (1200 or so).

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.10, 17:28 PM
did it run ok after it was warmed up?

doppelfaust
2011.03.10, 18:30 PM
did it run ok after it was warmed up?

Same deal after work today. Wouldn't stay running. Started with gas pedal pegged. Slowly lowered revs to 2k and then down to idle. Idled at 1200 and ran with no issue. Ran fine after warming up for 5 minutes or so.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.10, 19:19 PM
Control pressure actuator? Do you mean fuel pressure accumulator? your car does not have a control pressure regulator as it is CIS-E.

Did you check the mA readings when it was warmed up?

doppelfaust
2011.03.10, 20:20 PM
Sorry, fuel pressure regulator... trying to find my DIMM so I can check mA.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.10, 20:30 PM
Where is it leaking fuel from? The vacuum line? The casing?

doppelfaust
2011.03.10, 20:54 PM
I feel like there is a communication breakdown... pictures will help.

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww355/doppelfaust/helpme2.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww355/doppelfaust/helpme1.jpg

The item pictured is where the leak is coming from. It appears to be coming from the connector... I tried to connect my test harness but the car barely idled with it attached. I will try again with some light tomorrow, ran out of sun today...

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.10, 21:14 PM
Ok, thats the DPR. The fuel pressure regulator is the round jobbie just towards the front of the car in the last pic. fuel leaking from a dpr is pretty common and should be replaced for obvious reasons. That said, a leaking DPR will not likely cause your symptom. You see that banjo fitting between te DPR and the FPR? See how it has a raised round head? Those ones are units that have filter screens in them. the screens should be removed. Probably not your problem, but something to look at. I always remove the screens and put an 'X' on the head to indicate it has been done.

Report back with DPR mA readings. Its possible that since you found the vacuum leak that the original setting was off..

doppelfaust
2011.03.10, 22:20 PM
Realized why the mA wasn't reading correctly... the fuse was dead in my DMM. Will replace the fuse and report back tomorrow.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.10, 22:53 PM
:thumbup:

doppelfaust
2011.03.11, 16:35 PM
Well, DPR was sitting at about 7.5mA...

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.11, 17:22 PM
set it to 10mA. Make sure its warmed up and it should be fluctuating. We need to start with base settings and make sure they are correct before chasing a problem ;)

doppelfaust
2011.03.14, 12:27 PM
Set to 10mA... was a VERY rough start to get it going on my lunch break. Cranks and cranks, fires and then dies... Repeated several times, checked for vacuum leaks and checked electrical connections. After several more attempts I got the car started. Let it warm up and let the fan cycle and set the DPR amperage.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.14, 14:49 PM
hard start before or after the setting of the mA?

doppelfaust
2011.03.14, 15:01 PM
hard start before or after the setting of the mA?

Before, needed to get it warm to set the DPR. True test will be tonight after work. Will report back following that.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.14, 17:59 PM
:thumbup:

doppelfaust
2011.03.14, 19:04 PM
Started like a champ... ran strong all the way home. Idle was high, lowered it when I got home.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.14, 19:14 PM
Win!

doppelfaust
2011.03.15, 06:05 AM
Started rough this morning but ran fine all the way to work.

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 07:49 AM
I'm at a loss, this morning... absolutely would not start. Tried a couple small things but ended up having to carpool with Selena.

Cranked and would sputter but could never get it to idle. Pulled the DPR and definitely have fuel there (got sprayed in the face). For S&Gs I tried a different DPR, didn't seem to change anything. Pulled the head off the filter box and actuated the arm, seemed to be moving smoothly. After putting it back on the filter box and turning the car over to start it the car was close to running. Honestly don't know where to start, DPR amperage was set previously, no vacuum leaks that I know of, car definitely has gas.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.28, 07:59 AM
Did we talk about the CTS yet?

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 08:17 AM
Did we talk about the CTS yet?

Don't think so, will test resistance on it tonight... It was "fairly" new. Its not a Bosch one though, and I've heard of the generic ones failing prematurely.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.28, 08:19 AM
Hmm yeah, check that and report back.

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 08:24 AM
Looks like I can get a Genuine Bosch one without too much hassle...

What figure should I be seeing when the car is cold?

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.28, 08:42 AM
Alldata says:

1. With the ignition "OFF", remove the electrical connector at the coolant temperature sensor.
2. With a suitable volt/ohm meter, measure the resistance between the two terminals of the coolant temperature sensor. The correct resistance should be:

o At 68F (20C), approx. 2500 ohms
o Above 68F (20C), less than 2500 ohms.
o Below 68F (20C), greater than 2500 ohms.

If the correct measurement is not obtained replace the coolant temperature sensor.

However, that is a pretty shitty test if you ask me. LMK see if I can get a better test..

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.28, 08:48 AM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8ZeLVOMtFep8wXJCjcbHRlV-GCgK6hjKILwTnV5KTLqY2Jgye&t=1

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 09:27 AM
Thanks Chris! I wish I was more affluent so I could just have you fix my turd. Alas, I get to pick your brain and tinker instead.

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 18:57 PM
CTS tested fine... put old DPR back on so I'm not troubleshooting multiple parts at once.

Checked the fuel line you indicated may have a filter in it, it had been removed. Pulled my plugs and they were pretty ugly, seemed like I had excess fuel in cylinder 3, spark plug was wet. Replaced the spark plugs but still nothing. Definitely have fuel at the DPR and fuel at the line that might have had a filter/screen in it. Got it to crank and almost run but didn't idle.

How much do you charge to change out engine management to Megasquirt? I'm really getting frustrated with CIS-E, despite the fact its treated me OK for awhile. Have no idea how I am getting to work tomorrow...

doppelfaust
2011.03.28, 20:19 PM
Riddle me this...

Removed the air filter so I could more easily actuate the air sensor plate... Moved the plate a couple cycles (up and down). Attempted to restart, reved and died. Tried again (kept the gas pedal to the floor), car starts and revs towards redline. Release the gas pedal slightly to keep it from redlining and then the slowly lower it to idle and it runs with no issue. Allow the car to idle for a bit, turn it off to reinstall the air filter and the car restarts with no issue. I'm so bleeping confused. Problem is obviously temperamental but I haven't the foggiest on what the heck it could be.

Crossing my fingers that my car starts in the morning...

doppelfaust
2011.03.29, 09:39 AM
And it died again.

Tried to restart if before we left for dinner lastnight and the same thing... Sounded like it was trying to start but just wouldn't idle and stay running. Going to check timing tonight but problem seems to temperamental to be timing.

Rabbit 16v
2011.03.29, 10:18 AM
First off, I dont think you would be happy putting MS on it for a DD.
If you want to switch to a simple FI system, use digi 2
Now, on to your current problem. Try jumpering the fuel pump relay, pull the injectors out, lift air flow plate and see if fuel sprays out.

doppelfaust
2011.03.29, 10:28 AM
First off, I dont think you would be happy putting MS on it for a DD.
If you want to switch to a simple FI system, use digi 2
Now, on to your current problem. Try jumpering the fuel pump relay, pull the injectors out, lift air flow plate and see if fuel sprays out.

The eventual plan is 2.0L bottom end and turbo. Digi 2 would be a pain since the Fox does not use a conventional fuse box... unless I pulled a complete Digi system out of another Fox but I am not interested in that.

Will check timing and jumper fuel pump relay and pull injectors.

doppelfaust
2011.04.04, 12:01 PM
The Fox is running and starting like a champ. First key flick and she starts up...

This is my theory. So I went to start her last Monday and she wouldn't start. Got home Monday evening, same issue, changed plugs (they looked bad) but couldn't get her going. Finally killed the battery trying to get the car to start. Thursday night I stick the battery on the charger but don't have time or good enough weather to work on her anymore during the week. I went out Saturday to start troubleshooting but for schits and giggles I just try to start her without changing anything, first key flick and she starts. My guess is this, plugs were bad to begin with. I flooded the car trying to get it to start with no spark. I change the plugs but the cylinders are still flooded. Once I kill the battery and let it sit to charge the fuel dissipates and the battery is fresh so she starts right up.

Rabbit 16v
2011.04.04, 18:11 PM
Your theory seems pretty accurate. However, what made you think the plugs were bad?

doppelfaust
2011.04.04, 18:41 PM
Your theory seems pretty accurate. However, what made you think the plugs were bad?

I pulled one to check it.:) Figured it was best to keep it simple; fuel, spark, air. Pulling the plug was the easiest thing to check... Figuring out why they had failed might be a better mystery to solve.

Rabbit 16v
2011.04.04, 18:52 PM
Got a pic of the suspicious plug?

doppelfaust
2011.04.18, 07:34 AM
Is it possible for a fuel pump relay to prime the pumps but not run after the fact?

I had the same issue I had before this morning, car almost started (running off the cold start valve I assume) but would not idle. I don't know what made me try it but I swapped out the fuel pump relay for a new one and my car immediately started.

Rabbit 16v
2011.04.18, 07:45 AM
fuel pump relays can do all sorts of wierd shit. I once saw a relay that shorted the ignition system and caused a no spark situation :screwy:

doppelfaust
2011.04.20, 06:33 AM
Replaced the O2 sensor yesterday. That, along with the new fuel pump relay seems to have made for a pretty happy car. She runs great but her head ticks like mad so that's next on the list.