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Thread: My 190E 2.3-16

  1. #226
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Got some things in the mail today:

    Rebuilt harmonic balancer:


    Mmmmmm....:


    I at least got the balancer put back on, but I'm still missing a couple little gaskets (ETA next week) to get the the motor back in one piece.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  2. #227
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Buy the ITB's off the guy that got the slide throttles?
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '03 Audi S8 --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
    '01 Ducati ST4

  3. #228
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Yeah, those are them. The setup isn't quite as "plug-n-play" as I hoped, there's a few little snags in going to ITBs like the linkage tab between the two throttle pairs needs to be extended, need to figure out a solution for getting the throttle cable attached, and I need to change over to EV-1 style injectors instead of EV-14s. And the trumpets currently on there are too short to use with an airbox, so I'll have to get some foam filters for them at least to get the car rolling again, then switch to longer trumpets and an airbox.

    But the thing I do like is I now have one of the Hartman Motorsports manifolds, which means that should I ever need to change to a single-throttle plenum, I just need the fabricator to make some short runners that terminate in DCOE flanges, and the manifold handles splitting the air into each intake port. No sawing 16v manifolds required! And the AN fittings on the fuel rails are the same size as the rail I was going to use (and my hard line adapters, and my FPR) so no changes needed for fuel lines.

    Fun fact I learned today: 2.5-16s have the same size intake ports as Evo I and Evo II engines, and the 2.3-16 heads may also have different intake port sizes depending on whether the car is ECE or NAM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  4. #229
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Thought I might as well share these here too. I downloaded FreeCAD last week and used one of the tutorials as a guide for modelling the distributor adapter for the EPM:


    This is a pretty simple design. It's hollowed out inside so you can thread nuts and washers onto the EPM studs, and the distributor shaft should sit pretty close to the EPM, minimizing the size of the drive adaptor that I'll have to figure out later.

    Then while poking around the garage tonight I found my box of SLS parts and started cleaning off the SLS pump mounting plate. While cleaning it the original gasket fell off in one piece, so I used it as a basic idea for the SLS side. After a few hours I had this:



    I think I'm starting to get the hang of it It's going to be a more complicated design because the EPM's diameter may be a hair too big for the square of bolts used to mount the SLS pump, meaning the adapter is about 1" tall and will need a decently long drive adapter to slot into the key used by the SLS pump to mesh with the exhaust cam. That may mean putting some kind of bearing in it to support the adapter and keep it centered...

    For reference, here's the piece the EPM would mount to, and the key originally used to drive the SLS pump from the exhaust cam:

    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  5. #230
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Modded your model a bit and trying to fix some warping that I'm having, but we're getting close with a part!
    Split it into two pieces so I don't have to print support material (since you can't really print overhangs very well). The center 'slug' can be glued into the main body.

    IMG_20141108_074700340 by alxdgr8, on Flickr
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '03 Audi S8 --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
    '01 Ducati ST4

  6. #231
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Awesome, those are looking good! I'll send you the SLS part as well. It will probably need to be split into 2-3 pieces for easier printing, but hopefully with some sturdy glue it'll still make a useful mock-up
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  7. #232
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Mounted up the plate on the engine to see what kind of depth I'm working with and found out that the piece coming off the camshaft actually sits pretty close to the plate. I'll try to come up with a design for an adapter using the specs given from AEM.

    In other news, I was looking over my exhaust manifold and noticed a crack on one of the 2 exits (are they still runners after they combine?)



    Looks like it's not the first crack in that area either. Hopefully its repairable, or I can at least find another stock manifold. Yes the guy who organized the group buy for the Stromung exhausts also sells headers but that's another $1000 (+ the cost of a new front exhaust section since the new header won't line up). If I was sticking with N/A forever I'd be fine getting the improved header, but since this car will eventually see a turbocharger and I'll have to have a custom manifold made anyway, I'd rather not buy 2 custom manifolds
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  8. #233
    sweet job on designing that part.. fun to see
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  9. #234
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    OK so a bit of a problem I'm facing. Last weekend my friend came over with his torque wrench and we torqued down the crank bolt (since none of my torque tools go beyond 150ftlbs). Then the engine stopped rotating. Today I put some oil in the bores (Total Seal says to install the rings dry, and I did, but I'm worried about corrosion inside the bores now that it's all back together...), set the engine next to my heater, and let the heater blow on it for a few hours to warm it up. Came back a few hours later, and it does rotate, but there's a certain point in the rotation where the engine just stops. I can put an uncomfortable amount of weight on my breaker bar and it still won't spin.

    Looking back over the service manual I do see that my memory was incorrect and I accidentally overtorqued the crank bolt by 30ftlbs So maybe this weekend I can get over there and back it out. But I'm curious, what would cause the engine to develop one particular spot in the rotation where it just seizes up? I'm not really sure what it could possibly be binding on unless the oil pump at the front is being squeezed too much by the crank bolt and its spring washers. I just hope I didn't warp anything...I don't want to tear it all apart again.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  10. #235
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Make sure you put all the caps on in the correct orientation (they're generally line-bored on the engine). I had one backwards when I did the road bearings on my 944 once and it wouldn't rotate easily. Flipped it around and it spun great.

    It's an idea at least, not sure if it's the problem.
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '03 Audi S8 --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
    '01 Ducati ST4

  11. #236
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    The M102's bearing caps are all one-way to prevent that They totally don't line up if they're put on backwards.

    The motor used to spin before I torqued down the crank bolt. I had also lightly oiled the threads on that bolt thinking it would help it go in and rotate easier but I didn't realize this also has the effect of reducing the amount of required torque. So that means its over-torqued even more, and that may have something to do with it. Also it's colder and damper now, and I'm worried about the insides of the cylinder bores starting to rust because the engine is just sitting there. I rotated it after a week and a half of not working on the car and I noticed I had to use more force to get it moving, but then it spun normally after that...kind of like the pistons/rings were starting to stick to the bores?

    I can rotate it backwards too. It's just this one certain spot in the rotation where it just stops. I haven't tried to do one full reverse rotation to see the size of this zone of no rotation.

    Also, a fresh, never-before-started motor is going to be a little harder to spin than one that's broken in, correct? Months ago when I was doing the intake valves on the GTI I had to rotate its motor and noticed it was way easier to spin, but that could be due to 70k mi of internal wear & being fully oiled vs. all-new bearing surfaces and a coating of assembly lube.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.11.20 at 14:44 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  12. #237
    Regular Member benny_mech will become famous soon enough
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    How did you keep the crank from rotating while you torqued the crank pulley bolt?
    “Right now, it's like this.”
    ― Ajahn Sumedho

  13. #238
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I have a lock that bolts on to the engine block and holds the flywheel in place by meshing with the ring gear:



    Parts order got delayed and I haven't had time to get over there lately.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  14. #239
    Regular Member benny_mech will become famous soon enough
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    Whatever torque you put on the pulley bolt was transmitted down the length of the crankshaft, and reacted back at the flywheel. Probably not enough to tweak the crank, but I'm wondering what the total applied torque was. I'd definitely try a loosen & retorque before worrying too much.
    “Right now, it's like this.”
    ― Ajahn Sumedho

  15. #240
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    So I'm feeling like an idiot... took a look at the motor over the weekend after releasing the torque on the crank bolt. I swear I had everything timed correctly before, but the crankshaft has gone just about 180 degrees out of sync... when the camshafts are approaching their #1TDC position, cyls 2 and 3 are approaching TDC and making contact with their intake/exhaust valves. Piston can't move through the valve, so that explains why the engine stops rotating a very certain point! I just have no idea how it got into this state.

    There's a small metal pin on the crankshaft that fits into a keyway on the crankshaft sprocket to prevent it from spinning on the crank. I *really* hope that pin didn't just break, but either way it seems I'm going to be pulling the timing cover and/or cylinder head again. Hope the valves and piston crowns are still OK

    EDIT: Yes, I did make sure it rotated after installing the timing chain
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.12.08 at 13:51 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  16. #241
    tell all of your local car enthusiast friends where the best place is to meet other local enthusiasts!
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  17. #242
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Aaaaaand we're back! Took a breather from working on the car to focus on some other things. Travelled east for Christmas/NYE to see the family and some friends, put in some work around the condo rearranging the living room and better organizing the place, finally got the TV mounted above the fireplace... oh, and I adopted a rescue a cat last month

    Here's Bug, in a picture ripped from Facebook so hopefully it shows


    First things first, I pulled the camshafts, verified the bottom end still spins nicely, and then checked the sprockets. Seems everything still turns together, so I think I just messed up the timing at some point putting it together. Took out the chain tensioner, got everything as lined up as best I could. I notice when I'm at the 0-degree mark on the balancer, the camshaft sprockets don't quiiiiite line up once I add tension to the chain, however the discrepancy is way less than 1 sprocket tooth, so I guess this is how its supposed to be? I need to double-check that.

    Before I could get the chain tensioner completely back together, I accidentally munged the soft sealing washer for the inside piece of the tensioner So that's going to delay getting everything back together as I want to have the timing chain and cam sprockets all synced and tensed up before I install the camshafts this time, since that process requires rotating the engine to get all 4 bolts on each cam.

    But since I was there, I decided to test fit the ITBs onto the manifold. The clearance between the ITB housing/manifold and the oil filter housing is basically 0 (they touch), so I'm starting to consider one of JC's remote-mount oil filter adapters for the block. I might just be able to remove a little bit of material from the filter housing and get a teeny bit of clearance between the two. And the throttle linkages still need to be figured out, but it should look pretty cool when its done



    But wait, there's more! After seeing what Alex could do with my adapter design, and seeing FlashForge had a Black Friday sale...I now own a 3D printer as well. I loaded up both my adapter designs and printed them. I'm really impressed at how well the "first drafts" fit together, considering this was all designed from my measurements with a little leeway added.

    First is the EPM-to-Distributor mount:





    And the second EPM-to-SLS design:






    The top design is what I think I'll go with, as I hear this location would have reduced error from timing chain rattle, stretch, etc. I could kinda see that-- the distributor is the first thing that the crankshaft pulls on with the timing chain as it rotates. I'm going to revise it a bit so there's a more substantial drive adapter slotting onto the top of the distributor shaft and a big enough notch to let me use AEM's included rubber insulator..thing.

    The bottom is just another idea I had to mount it where my deleted SLS pump would go. Regarding any chain-related problems, this location would be at the "opposite" end of the chain. If both implementations of the EPM suck and I wind up going with some kind of toothed wheel mounted directly to the crankshaft, this location would at least make a clean camshaft position sensor install using the EPM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  18. #243
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Nice! What printer and material? Looks like it's printing better than mine.
    I need to get my back up and running well... Was having a lot of warping problems with ABS when I was trying to print the adapters before.
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '03 Audi S8 --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
    '01 Ducati ST4

  19. #244
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    The printer is a FlashForge Creator Pro, which is a clone of the Makerbot Replicator 2X. The filament is some orange Shaxon PLA I bought at Fry's in Renton. For that print I believe I had the extruder at 190C, built with raft and support on a layer of blue painter's tape with the bed warmed to 45C. I then run a window fan on it at high (it's a small fan, a big box fan would probably be low/med) once the first layer of model is laid. PLA needs lots of cooling, ABS is the opposite. The ABS FlashForge included with the printer has only given me mixed results, but I also bought a spool of black Hatchbox ABS and the print quality I get from that is excellent. I did a couple of Emmett on Thingiverse's gear cubes to keep on my desk at work
    The sides of the Creator Pro are mostly solid and it has a removable top cover and a hinged front cover, so with the printer all closed up, a clean layer of kapton, and the build plate at 90-100C I get consistently good results with the Hatchbox, at least.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2015.02.17 at 21:09 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  20. #245
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Quote: Originally Posted by ExplosiveToaster View Post
    The printer is a FlashForge Creator Pro, which is a clone of the Makerbot Replicator 2X. The filament is some orange Shaxon PLA I bought at Fry's in Renton. For that print I believe I had the extruder at 190C, built with raft and support on a layer of blue painter's tape with the bed warmed to 45C. I then run a window fan on it at high (it's a small fan, a big box fan would probably be low/med) once the first layer of model is laid. PLA needs lots of cooling, ABS is the opposite. The ABS FlashForge included with the printer has only given me mixed results, but I also bought a spool of black Hatchbox ABS and the print quality I get from that is excellent. I did a couple of Emmett on Thingiverse's gear cubes to keep on my desk at work
    The sides of the Creator Pro are mostly solid and it has a removable top cover and a hinged front cover, so with the printer all closed up, a clean layer of kapton, and the build plate at 90-100C I get consistently good results with the Hatchbox, at least.
    Looks nice!

    Do you know what kind of hotend it has? E3D or Jhead?
    Also, what software are you using? Print speeds?
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '03 Audi S8 --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
    '01 Ducati ST4

  21. #246
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Unsure on which of those types it is, all I know is it's a pair of "MK8" extruders. Software is MakerBot Desktop, which doesn't recognize the SailFish 7.7 firmware but IMHO makes for better prints than ReplicatorG. Though I haven't gotten into fine-tuning the profile settings yet, just the default "normal" or "high" profile for the respective filament. MakerBot's default speeds are 90/150 (speed/travel) but I normally print at 60/80 or 75/100 so the machine doesn't eventually shake itself apart.

    EDIT: Did some Googling, the printer has 2 JHead MK8s. That might help me find out where I can get some all-metal extruders and stainless nozzles. There are some really interesting materials available in filament like nylon, laywood, bronze, and even carbon fiber

    The CF sounds especially interesting but the makers say it needs a stainless nozzle because it's a lot more abrasive than normal filament.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2015.02.17 at 21:48 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  22. #247
    Regular Member Helios is on a distinguished road Helios's Avatar
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    Just an FYI, Grassroots Motorsports has a little article on the 190E Cossie this month.
    -Chris S.

    "If they ain't a little too wide, they ain't wide enough!"
    '76 Mk1 / '87 XR4Ti / '93.5 SLC / '94 SVT / '95 RS / '96 GTi

  23. #248
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Just an FYI, Grassroots Motorsports has a little article on the 190E Cossie this month.
    Cool I saw it in the online preview of the magazine (only got to see the first few pages), I'll have to find a copy.

    In other news the cams are back in and timed correctly, timing chain tensioner is back together with a brand new sealing ring (Barrier MB had *3* in stock! Now they have 0 ) JC is in town on business so I invited him to the garage and showed him the project so far. We talked for a while about all sorts of things and I came away with some new tasks for the to-do list:
    • Change the freeze plug at the rear of the head (they are known to eventually start leaking)
    • Come up with a support bracket for the ITBs/manifold to prevent vibration-induced damage
    • Check & adjust the preload on the driveshaft when using Ake's poly engine mounts because they're actually a bit too tall
    • Change out stock valve springs and retainers with Cat Cams springs and retainers (lighter, less float @ 7k RPM, allow for more lift)
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  24. #249
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  25. #250
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    It's starting to look like a finished engine

    Right now it's just missing the belt tensioner and a few exhaust manifold studs. Oil pan is bolted in with a new gasket, thermostat housing is back on with a brand new thermostat and with 2 of the sensor bungs plugged (one was for CIS, the other for the A/C aux fan). The threads holding the plastic thermostat cap in place were damaged, and they were the same thread as some other damaged threads on the timing cover for the oil pan, so I ordered an M6 Timesert kit with a bunch of inserts and got those all repaired. I was a little worried at first, but installing them is a very easy process if you're careful and take it slow There were also some threaded holes for where the factory intake manifold got hooked into the coolant loop, and they had the same thread as the sensors I deleted, so I wound up getting 4 short M14x1.5 oil drain plugs from O'Reilly's and blocking off the holes I won't be using. I did replace the core plugs on the exhaust side of the block, decided I hate core plugs, just inspected the ones on the head. The ones I pulled from the block were still in good shape on the inside, and the cylinder head ones are still solid, so I'm calling it good for now. Also the power steering pump was disassembled to replace the O-rings, cleaned up, and reassembled. Cleaned the mounting bracket as best I could and got that all bolted on!

    The linkage for the ITBs still needs to be figured out, but once I'm done installing the last few bits to the engine I'm taking a break and focusing on the brakes and suspension. Still need to replace the front strut mounts and cut back the dust shields to fit the new brakes. I have the calipers all disassembled for media blasting, and I think I'll pay Performance Coatings in Auburn a visit (they did the GTI's exhaust) and see about their thermal dissipation coating. Anyone have recos for a place to get the calipers nice and clean for coating?

    After that it's (in general terms)...
    - Drop the rear subframe for refreshing the rear end (cleaning, bushings, inspect diff/axles, mount up brakes, etc.)
    - Take apart the dash and figure out wiring & ECU mounting
    - Mount up the driveshaft
    - Mount the clutch, mount the transmission, drop in the motor
    - Make & attach fuel lines, mount FPR & fuel rails
    - Make & attach oil cooler lines, get a new oil cooler (and possibly an Accu-Sump to be safe)
    - Connect the accelerator to the ITBs
    - Mount the exhaust
    - Make noises
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

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