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Thread: My 190E 2.3-16

  1. #126
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I double-checked over the weekend and yeah, I was off. More careful & repeated measurements showed they match up pretty well with the repair bearing sizes. Should be fine once the engine is back together and everything gets seated/broken in. That package can't come soon enough! Also, any recommendations for break-in oils are welcome. Total Seal says not to use synthetics for seating their rings, so conventional only. From some, I've heard any old cheap 5W40/10W40 with some zinc additive since the oil will be changed pretty soon after the first start.

    So what else is on the list of things to do, besides the engine?
    - Remove the driveshaft and replace both flex disks
    - Test both rear diffs, if the current one is bad then...
    - Remove the rear diff & axles, replace with the '86 diff and axles I picked up a while back
    - Wire the new diff's ABS sensor to the car (MB, of course, used a different sensor in the '87 diffs). Contemplating finding a nice weatherproof 2-pin connector and using that so I can go back and forth.
    - Remove the rear subframe and replace the subframe bushings
    - Disassemble the rear multilink suspension and replace the arm bushings (5 arms per side)
    - Install new driveshaft support & bearing once the driveline goes back into the car
    - Replace the front strut mounts (included in the ECS order), and possibly refresh the front struts.

    I'm happy the only thing in that list I'd need to buy are the 2-pin connector and struts And non-engine things I still need to buy and install:
    - New brake lines for the wheel wells
    - New brake rotors
    - New brake calipers (switching to a 400E or 500E setup for 4-pistons up front)
    - Pads, fluid, etc.

    There's a guy on the rev selling a pair of stripped Brembo aluminum 500E calipers with new seals for $200 a pop, but they need new pins and anti-rattle springs (~$80 per caliper) and need to be painted or powdercoated because they're bare aluminum.
    The alternative for a 500E setup is using the later iron Ate calipers, which can be found on ebay remann'd for about $200 each, no pins or painting required. Downside is they're heavier, so that's a little more weight moving up and down with the front wheels. The aluminum Brembo calipers are also what went on the Evo II, and are harder to find because only the early 500Es came with them before MB switched to the quieter iron calipers.
    Or I find a 400E/420E/500E at a pick-n-pull, grab all 4 calipers, and rebuild the whole set myself. That will probably be a lot cheaper! Pair them with some good track pads and rotors and this thing might just out-brake the GTI (Hawk HP+ for the track & slotted rotors).
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.03.13 at 21:11 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  2. #127
    good stuff..
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  3. #128
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Got some really good news today:


    AND I got shipping notices from both mbpartsworld and ECS, so it sounds like everything is on its way!

    And here's a quick shot of the block with its coat of paint. Masking is kinda crappy over where the oil filter and distributor mount. I also painted the mount brackets to match...should look pretty nice when it's sitting in the bay
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  4. #129
    Looks good. What's the good news with the transmission?
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  5. #130
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    ...it's done being rebuilt and back in my possession

    It took a few months and in the process I probably almost lost it because I had taken it to shop A, who turned around and sent it to shop B because they do their transmission work. The technician who took it to shop B and the owners of shop A had a falling out and he left on bad terms, and then shop B couldn't get ahold of A, and had absolutely no idea who I was until a few months later I remembered someone had my transmission and started making phone calls. THEN I had to wait another month or so while shop B, now paid up and getting to work on my transmission, sourced and ordered the parts they needed from Germany & had to wait for the shipping. I've learned my lesson from this, won't ever let a shop outsource work on anything I own

    In other news, Terry says he'll be done with the cylinder head tomorrow morning, so the last piece comes home tomorrow afternoon. Then if all my deliveries happen on time I'll have the rest of the engine parts coming in on Saturday and my assembly lube coming tomorrow. In the meantime, a lot of reading to make sure I understand all the steps I need to take to get the rotating assembly properly put together and installed.

    I hope to get crank and pistons installed in the block this weekend, but at the very least I'd like to check and correct the ring gaps, and then replace the clutch slave and get my shifter cleaned up and put back together, and replace the main oil gallery balls.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.03.20 at 22:22 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  6. #131
    Soo.. not getting much work done today then?
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  7. #132
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I was surprisingly productive!

    Also today I received the head bolts, clutch slave cylinder, and wideband O2 sensor/gauge kit, and got the cylinder head and oil pan back (& bought a big thing of assembly lube at Autosport because Amazon delayed my shipment. I'll just send back the two little bottles I bought there). I forgot to ask them to remove a rounded-out bolt from the head while it was there I tried cutting a slot with my Dremel to twist it out but cannot get it to budge. Hit it with some PB Blaster and I guess I'll try again over the weekend, and if all else fails I'll bring it back to Autosport and see if they can extract it.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  8. #133
    Regular Member benny_mech will become famous soon enough
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    If you've got access to a welder, I'd weld a nut to the stripped bolt. It works on every kind of stuck fastener, even when the heads are snapped off, if you're careful. I've given up on Easy-Outs and all that other shit.
    “Right now, it's like this.”
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  9. #134
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    No welder here, unfortunately. But that does give me hope that if I do have to take it somewhere it'll be a quick job.

    Hooray big box of parts!


    Today I filed my top 2 rings to the correct gap (the 2nd ring sealer rail and oil rings were all within spec) for each cylinder and at least got the pistons fully put together. After cleaning the mating surfaces, applying assembly lube, and developing a deep hatred of wire locks, I had this on my bench:



    Crankshaft bearings are installed but I discovered I accidentally ordered the old style 4th repair thrust plates (2.4mm) instead of the new style (4.15 or 4.2mm). Fortunately, I found this out because the old style has small tabs that went away when the new style engines received wider crank bearings, so everything was going swimmingly until this:


    Thankfully someone on the 190rev FB group sent me a site that actually lists what part numbers correlate to what thrust plate size, so I should be able to keep going on the bottom end soon-ish. I usually go by MBPartsWorld as it's a dealership-run site that gives you the full parts catalog with diagrams, but even though it listed 8 different thrust plates, none of their descriptions said anything about how thick they were.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.03.23 at 09:07 AM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  10. #135
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Work on the engine has stalled while waiting for the new thrust plates. Today I contacted ECS to split the order so they'd get here on Friday and I can resume this weekend. However, this has given me time to order a complete set of (Kawasaki!) valve shims, since now that my valves have brand new seats and guides they're all too tight, and none of my current shims would get them even close Kawasaki bikes use 13mm shims just like 16vs, except they cost $5 per shim instead of MB's $10!

    In the meantime, I've started planning out the EFI, since that's really the next thing left before I can fire it up again Here's what will be replacing the pile of CIS:


    RSI fuel rail with -6AN fittings, made by Oregon 190Rev member 'DBMO'
    36lb Bosch Gen3 fuel injectors
    Aeromotive 13129 adjustable FPR
    Tubing is stainless -6AN line/fittings, and adapters for the hard lines from the tank.
    I will use the stock fuel pump because this car had a Bosch 044 from the factory. And that 17gal tank! (what helped the 16v break records at Nardo for sure)


    Also, with the driveshaft now sitting on the workbench, I found that the flex disks I bought from the guy in Thailand months ago were for a Euro 16v, which had a different-sized disk on the diff , so I let him know and he's sending me the right size one for free. I find it pretty fascinating how grass-roots the aftermarket is for these cars since few of the big brands make parts for W201s (or 16vs especially). I did, however, find out that for a low low $6000 I can get a bolt-on(?) fully-adjustable race suspension from KW, which so I hear is pretty much what was used on the old DTM cars. Certainly would be pretty but I'll see how the Bilstein Sports on there do
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.03.31 at 21:34 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  11. #136
    Bilstein Sports will work fine it's pretty impressive to see things like that made by people for such a small enthusiast market.

    Where are you getting a lot of your ideas and information during your rebuild? I assume it's just from forum members and other people who have done something similar... but then it's kind of amazing that enough people would have done something like this to provide information and different opinions for you to follow.

    How different is the "equivalent" Euro engine to the one you have? For my M3 they're almost completely different, but the e36 M3 is a bit of a special case
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  12. #137
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Where are you getting a lot of your ideas and information during your rebuild? I assume it's just from forum members and other people who have done something similar... but then it's kind of amazing that enough people would have done something like this to provide information and different opinions for you to follow.

    How different is the "equivalent" Euro engine to the one you have? For my M3 they're almost completely different, but the e36 M3 is a bit of a special case
    My ideas are pretty much that-- a lot of reading posts on 190rev, benzworld, flipping through the FSM, reading my fuel injection and engine math books, and looking at pictures One of the late 190rev members released his write-ups of different mods including EFI conversion, ITB conversion, and his custom Rotrex setup, so that's pretty handy. That and asking a lot of questions whenever I can. Even just talking to Brad and Terry @ Autosport, I've learned some useful tidbits about getting the motor back together and running. It's a small community, but there are a handful of guys who race 16v's in NASA/SCCA, tuners overseas who get ridiculous power out of these, and members who have become very knowledgeable in the stock systems to keep their cars running (as I understand, 16v cars in California risk failing inspections if converted to EFI). Plus these cars have lately been getting more attention as the "cheaper" alternative to E30 M3s

    The Euro and NA motors are actually pretty similar. Euro motors have different pistons for a 10.5:1 C/R instead of 9.7:1, so they produce ~20hp more power. The reason the diffs are different is because MB compensated for the lack of power in the NA motor by adjusting the final drive ratio, so my car's stock 0-60 time is the same as a stock Euro. The other notable difference is the European motors have a potentiometer for the CIS reference resistor, so you can easily adjust your timing, whereas the NA cars require changing out the resistor (which just plugs into the harness by the ECU).
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  13. #138
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    So here's the difference between the first set of thrust plates and the correct set of thrust plates:



    They fit perfectly, so I was able to continue and wind up with this:




    Unfortunately, the conrod bearings are too thin, and I can wiggle the rods about 2mm on the crankpins. I'm not sure if this is expected since these are piston-guided rods, but I've got a feeling it isn't. Also, after some further observation and reading, I think the main bearings I bought are also the wider style intended for pre-06/86 motors, since the halves don't quite line up. I might've once again been confused by the parts catalog

    On the bright side, I got these today:


    So I can at least get the valves shimmed and get the head back together.

    More bad news is that I'm feeling pretty sure the 16v won't be back on the road in time for Leavenworth. But this at least relieves some of the pressure to get it done and let me focus on getting it back together correctly. And I'm going to renew my search for a M102 crankshaft that hasn't experienced a bend.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  14. #139
    Oh lordy. Is it a good time for these three little letters? SBC. I kid, I kid. I know its like pulling teeth now, but when this all over, you're going to be happy its all over.
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  15. #140
    can someone learn me about thrust plates?
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  16. #141
    everyone probably knows me by now buddylove is a jewel in the rough buddylove is a jewel in the rough
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    They go between the crank and the block to take up the slop and make sure there is very little movement side to side.

  17. #142
    gotcha
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  18. #143
    Regular Member Helios is on a distinguished road Helios's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by ExplosiveToaster View Post
    Unfortunately, the conrod bearings are too thin, and I can wiggle the rods about 2mm on the crankpins. I'm not sure if this is expected since these are piston-guided rods, but I've got a feeling it isn't. Also, after some further observation and reading, I think the main bearings I bought are also the wider style intended for pre-06/86 motors, since the halves don't quite line up. I might've once again been confused by the parts catalog
    Or more likely, the crank was machined when it was reworked (making it undersized), and required thicker than standard bearings (though I would've expected the shop to inform you of the change in spec). Although that wouldn't account for changes in bearing width. That's got to be aggravating as hell. And I can't imagine MB bearings are very cheap...

    This is my biggest fear with my build, and why I'm waiting until after the block and crank are checked out by the machine shop and measured. In fact my machinist specifically told me not to order innards yet, to wait until after everything checks out. I laughed and told him that was my plan right now anyways. I'd hate to spend a mint on the bloody slugs to find out they won't work. Haha.
    Last edited by Helios; 2014.04.08 at 14:19 PM.
    -Chris S.

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  19. #144
    Regular Member benny_mech will become famous soon enough
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  20. #145
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    When I measured the journals they matched up with the 1st repair bearing size I had asked for. Granted this is with my calipers so that's +/-0.025mm, so I measured in multiple trials and they largely checked out (spot on). I need to double check the part number on the Kolbenschmidt box, these aren't MB parts like the mains are, so it's possible these are actually stds and not 1st repairs. Either way, if they're actually stds. or my journals aren't what I thought they are, at least these could be cleaned off and re-used on a newer crank. Unfortunately the mains match the width for old-style M102s, so that's a bummer.

    Cylinder bores are great. Terry waited to bore the block until I came in with the pistons and rings.

    On the plus side, I installed the new Kawi shims tonight and got the valves mostly into spec. A few came out just a bit too loose so I need to pick up some extras at the local dealerships, but it's a lot easier to buy 3 or 4 locally than 16 at once! And I found out some of the local pick n pulls have E420s, so I might be able to score a set of brake calipers if the weather's good.

    EDIT: I also had a FB thread going a while back where I asked what car you COULDN'T swap an SBC into. I think the only one I haven't yet found is a Smart. The single-wheeled Isetta is a bit of a stretch, but if you accept a 4-wheeled Isetta there's this. That might actually be one of the bigger models that BMW made...
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.04.08 at 21:16 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  21. #146
    I can't say I haven't thought about a SBC while my engine bay is empty. There would be a lot of butthurt people if I did that. Except me, I'd be shit-faced smiling as I went sideways around every corner.
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  22. #147
    oh! Small Block Chevy

    took me a bit
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  23. #148
    I'm surprised you haven't considered that option as well Mr. E36MOnwer. All the power of Detroit with the ride refinement of Munich. LSX's are very nice things in tracked E36 M3s.
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  24. #149
    part of the reason I like BMW is their inline 6 engines. The S50 is pretty glorious when unleashed.

    One of the other reasons I like BMW is the handling.. which us definitely where my focus lies with the M3, especially as a track car. Being on track is so much more about handling than power. That's why a Miata can be a threat on track even though it might be the slowest car, and why my wagon could keep up with most cars through turns. Adding a lot of power isn't of great interest to me.
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  25. #150
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by joel View Post
    That's why a Miata can be a threat on track even though it might be the slowest car
    Except for one of the Miatas I saw at a Turn2 event that had an SBC under the hood
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

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