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Thread: My 190E 2.3-16

  1. #201
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Quote: Originally Posted by ExplosiveToaster View Post
    I have the W201 factory service manual in PDF form, it covers the timing chain replacement procedure if you need it. Is your chain stretched or rattling? If you have one of the newer ratcheting styles of tensioner, it should be OK to reuse if it's in good shape. If you need to replace the rails you're going to need to pull the head and timing cover, though.
    I've got the PDF too. No clue if it's stretched, but I'm pretty sure it's not rattling. Is there an easy way to inspect it without pulling it apart? I have a borescope.
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
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  2. #202
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Send it down the front of the engine, once you snake it around the cam sprockets it's pretty open underneath.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  3. #203
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I've been slowly picking away at it as I realized the one bag of bolts I *can't* find is the bag of bolts for the timing cover, and I've now bought 2 sets of M8 bolts at the hardware store that are either too short or too long. I decided to mount the flywheel before doing the timing chain so I could lock the crankshaft at TDC, but because I need to take the block off the stand to do it I had to wait for a weekday to pick up a pair of M12 eyebolts:


    Sorry 'bout the blurry picture. The timing cover is on but I need to re-do it since I a) didn't use all the bolts to secure it after applying sealing compound (because "the bolts are in here somewhere....oh crap") and b) compound likes to squeeze itself into bolt holes when there's no bolt in them.

    For the timing chain, my plan is to rotate the cams to #1TDC (aligning the 2 marks on the sprockets), remove the sprockets for mounting the head, and then get the sprockets in with 2/4 bolts each so they're connected while I rivet the master link and set the chain tensioner. Crank will be locked in at #1TDC using the flywheel lock tool (so I guess this is within 1 flywheel tooth of #1TDC). I think that should keep everything where it needs to be while I get the timing chain together, but if there's an easier way I'm all ears.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  4. #204
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Hmm...another stumbling block! Got some ARP studs (their kits for the Ford Pinto also fit these motors, who woulda guessed?) and got the head mounted but not torqued down yet. Once the head was sitting on the block I bolted it in to the timing cover and installed the sprockets. When I bought the timing chain around...



    Well, crap. The part number checks out on the EPC although its an old part number for the timing chain. I'm not sure why it's 5-6 links too short up here, though. The sprockets aren't attached to the cams right now so they can spin freely, and I'm pulling all the slack I have on the chain in that picture. Maybe there's a few links bunched up somewhere in the timing cover and that's why it appears too short, but I'm pretty stumped on this one. I did follow the service manual's diagram on routing the chain through the 2 idler sprockets. Am I just missing something? Never done a timing chain before.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  5. #205
    Normal Member V8-190e is on a distinguished road V8-190e's Avatar
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    Shit - that has to be frustrating...I would have also guessed that some links could be bound up to but maybe it is just the wrong part#? or the right part# on the wrong part?

    The other possibility could be different sized idler sprockets?

  6. #206
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Well I tried my best to spot any bunched up links through the timing cover and didn't see anything, so I started disassembling stuff until I could get the chain out. Laid it next to my old chain (so happy I didn't throw it out!) and sure enough the links match up, so it must've just been caught up somewhere inside that I couldn't see. Now that I know this, I could've just gone in to the bottom of the motor with one of my small hooked picks and wiggled the chain until the bunch came loose. Now I'm going to have to pull the timing cover off completely (which is stuck on something...not sure what) over the weekend to loop the chain through again.

    I think I may try putting the cylinder head on first, pulling the ends of the chain through it, securing them to the valve cover studs with some wire, and THEN install the timing cover. That should help me verify that there are no kinks or bunched links, and that the ends of the chain will meet up around the sprockets before bolting everything back together. Another note is it's wise to remove the water pipe from the front of the head while installing the timing chain for the first time because that's one less obstacle you need to route around when getting the chain up through the cylinder head.

    I'm really starting to think that if when I first start this motor it explodes, I'm just going to say F- It and swap in an SBC
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  7. #207
    Normal Member V8-190e is on a distinguished road V8-190e's Avatar
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    Quote: I'm really starting to think that if when I first start this motor it explodes, I'm just going to say F- It and swap in an SBC
    Well...if you ever get to the point of wanting a 1uz in one I have a few thoughts for ya!

  8. #208
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Progress today! Re-installed the chain and the timing cover, making sure not to let the links bunch together this time. The chain riveter tool made short work of the connecting link once I got the hang of how to do it. Then while rotating the engine to check timing, foolishly without the chain tensioner installed, the cams started jumping teeth and it took a bit of work to get it all back in correct timing. Once I had everything back in a good state I proceeded to start installing the chain tensioner, forgetting that the little sealing ring that goes between it and the block can come un-seated, and then I mashed it up pretty good trying to torque down the tensioner's internal mechanism. There's always something!

    Now to order a new ring and a few other things. But I think the toughest part is done (getting that damn chain on correctly) so getting the rest of the motor together shouldn't be that bad. The task list for getting the engine back together:
    • Install new tensioner housing on block with new sealing ring
    • Re-install tensioner internals & torque down
    • Re-attach cams to cam sprockets, install upper chain guide & torque down the cams & sprockets
    • Torque down the head
    • Install level sensor on oil pan, install w/ gasket
    • Scrape off old water pump gasket, install new water pump w/ gasket
    • Install oil filter housing w/ gasket
    • Clean, inspect, reinstall valve cover
    • Bolt on all the other random pumps and brackets

    Also, a while back I broke down all 4 calipers for the SL500 brake setup I'm swapping into the 190, the 4-piston Ate front calipers both have a good set of pistons inside, and today I test-fitted one of the calipers onto a front spindle to ensure it bolts on. Front calipers and rotors should fit A-OK, just need to test the rears out sometime.

    The SL500 brake setup will give me vented 300x28mm rotors up front with 4-pot calipers and solid 278x9mm rotors with 2-pot calipers in the rear. I may look into the 500E rear setup, which is vented 278x24mm rotors and 2-pots. Not sure if I'm going to need the extra cooling in the rear, and I imagine the vented rotors will add some rotational mass on the drive wheels. For reference, the stock 16v brakes are vented 284x22 rotors up front and 258x9 solids in the rear, so this nets me slightly bigger brakes and much beefier calipers. Might not be a bad idea to try these brakes with a W124 or R129 master cylinder just in case the stock 16v one isn't good enough.

    Oh yeah, anyone have recommendations for powdercoating calipers? Or zinc anodizing them so I'm not coating them with a heat insulator.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.10.18 at 18:22 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  9. #209
    I had powdercoated brembos on my wagon.. wasn't really a fan, but it's how they came. I'd much rather anodize calipers. The powercoating didn't get into tight spaces very well and chipped off a little too easily around some of the holes and such.
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  10. #210
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Know of any good places for anodizing around here? There's a place down in PDX that I can ship the caliper halves too, and they do both blasting and anodizing so that would be hopefully be a one-stop shop.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  11. #211
    I haven't looked for any.. so, not sure
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  12. #212
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Think I figured out what I'm going to use for my crank position sensor: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=pro...ion-module-epm


    It's a little puck AEM makes that contains a 24-1 wheel providing both crankshaft AND camshaft position (camshaft is a single-tooth trigger). It requires custom work to mount, but the idea is you replace the rotor part of your distributor with the EPM. Costs less than a trigger wheel and pulley combination too (although I'll probably need to get a few little pieces made to mount it). I have a wasted spark coilpack for the engine but this gives me the option of using individual coilpacks if necessary. For you JDM and USDM people, they have ready-made ones for Honda, Ford V8s, and SBCs.

    There's a more expensive option as well, as the guys who made my 12lb flywheel have a new version with a 60-2 trigger wheel integrated, letting you use one of the stock crankshaft position sensor locations. It may be possible I can trade mine + cash for the EFI version in December...otherwise I'd have to sell mine to someone else and buy a brand new one.

    Also, some fun news on the intake front. I found an ITB setup already pieced together to work with this motor, and the seller also has an 034-compatible ECU file using slightly smaller injectors and a bigger fuel pump. He was going to use it, but wound up scoring a set of slide throttles from Europe. Tweaking that to get the car running will be much easier than figuring out the tables based on a Megasquirt tune intended for the stock manifold, and once I started estimating the costs of everything involved in having my own plenum made, the ITBs came out ahead.

    In case anyone is wondering what the bigger, future plans are at the moment, I've been leaning toward the Evo I kit once I need to make room for bigger tires, and the eventual forced induction will probably be a turbo now that I have an induction system. I guess we'll see for sure once the build gets there
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  13. #213
    everyone probably knows me by now buddylove is a jewel in the rough buddylove is a jewel in the rough
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    Always loved the Evo I kit.

  14. #214
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    That AEM trigger is a good idea! I might have to steal that idea for my 190E and maybe my Audi projects.
    If you get one of them, I'll help you design whatever we need to adapt it. We can prototype with my 3D printer and I know someone with a CNC mill to do the final piece.
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '95 Audi 90QS (1.8T swap) --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
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  15. #215
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    I'm guessing you've seen this install guide that has all the dimensions you need to make an adapter?

    http://aemelectronics.com/files/inst...ule%20Puck.pdf
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '95 Audi 90QS (1.8T swap) --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
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  16. #216
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I skimmed it. Yeah, that gives part of the information we need. I won't know the full design until I have an EPM in hand and crack open the dizzy. Shouldn't be anything complicated though. If we can make a kit out of it, I think it would be a useful thing to sell on 190rev. Both 16v and 8v owners will benefit! And since the distributor is a Bosch unit, maybe even other euro cars.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  17. #217
    pretty awesome.. I love stuff like that
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  18. #218
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Spent a few hours in the garage today and made some good progress! I found a chain tensioner seal ring in my engine gasket kit, so I was able to install and torque down the chain tensioner. Got the exhaust cam bolted in, followed by the sprocket bearing caps and the top chain rail. Then I went to work on the valve cover, cleaning out the insides and the oil separator:


    Then I finished scraping off the old water pump gasket and installed my new pump, re-installed the oil level sensor and installed the oil pan with a fresh gasket, cleaned and reinstalled the oil filter housing, and then got to work cleaning off the brackets and installing them on the engine. At the end of the day, here's what I had on the stand:







    In the middle picture you see the power steering pump on the bench. I'm going to refresh the seals and filter before reinstalling it. The harmonic balancer is missing because its off being rebuilt (hooray NLA part!), so once I have that back I'll have the front of the crank all put back together.

    EDIT: Also, I ordered the AEM EPM from Summit Racing. The stock distributor is also on the bench for cleaning & disassembly, and then I can get some measurements taken. And I guess soon enough I should get the exhaust header blasted and take it down to Performance Coatings in Auburn for some ceramic coating. They're the folks that did the turboback exhaust on my GTI, really pleased with how that came out.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.10.25 at 21:14 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  19. #219
    Regular Member alxdgr8 will become famous soon enough
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    Well after some more research, I don't think it's a good idea to rely on just a cam sensor for everything. Seems like lots of people have problems with timing jitter with both timing belt and chain motors. There's just too much slop between the cams and the crank and you really need to trigger off the crank to get a reliable trigger. I think it would probably work fine for the stock power levels, but I don't know if I'd put it on a turbo engine. I'll still help out if you want to go that route though! You can always use it for sequential along with a crank trigger.
    -Alex @vexartmedia-
    '10 VW Touareg TDI [Tow Rig and DD]
    '92 Porsche 968 (VW 07k 2.5T swap in the works) --- '95 Audi 90QS (1.8T swap) --- '86 Audi Coupe GT (2.3L 20v swap) ---'83 Audi UrQuattro (2.2L 20vt swap in progress)
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  20. #220
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I'm curious to try it, at least. Hopefully the effects of chain movement are minimal since the crank sprocket is directly pulling on the distributor sprocket. If not, there's always the 60-2 EFI flywheel or Ake RT/Hedgehog Motorsports's 36-1 crank pulley kits.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  21. #221
    Regular Member benny_mech will become famous soon enough
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    That water pump is way phallic.
    “Right now, it's like this.”
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  22. #222
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by benny_mech View Post
    That water pump is way phallic.
    And the 16v gets an extra-long one because of the bigger head.



    And this came quickly:


    Feels very solid and the rotor spins smoothly. Hopefully later this week I can dissect the distributor and see how the two can come together.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  23. #223
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    Found that time tonight


    What you can't see here is the massive chunk of broken insulator stuck in the cap


    The little rubber bit on the drive tab is supplied with the EPM. Thanks to a diagonal slot on the distributor, driving it directly requires getting the height juuuuust right or it'll be off-center.


    With the two "centered" (I eyeballed it), it would look like this. With a shiny new piece of metal in between.


    Part # for the dizzy if anyone is interested..

    Measurements done with digital calipers, +/-0.02mm if I remember correctly.

    Distributor cap is mounted via 2 threaded holes, innermost sides are 77.17mm apart and the hole diameter is just about 5mm, so a 6mm hole in the adapter plate would be good for a little wiggle room. That makes the center-to-center distance of the two bolt holes 82.17mm.

    There is a 2.50mm tall lip running around the top of the distributor body, which is 65.19mm in diameter.

    The shaft coming up from the drive gear extends 19.64mm from the top of the lip. This shaft is 10.07mm across, and at the top it has a 4.20mm wide and 6.70mm notch, which tapers back to the outside over 12.64mm.

    If the adapter were a solid piece it would need recesses cut out for the 3 studs coming down from the EPM. The shaft is actually tall enough that with the correct rubber piece connecting the shaft to the EPM wheel, the drive tab would fit right inside the notch and no adapter would be necessary. Fortunately it's not a terribly complicated design, it could be as simple as a flat, thick metal plate with a 2.5mm deep 65.2mm dia. circle cut out from the bottom with a 10.1mm hole in the center for the distributor shaft. 3 holes for the EPM as specified by the AEM doc and recesses underneath so the are threads for the nuts to lock on to. On the outside, a pair of 6mm holes about 82.17mm apart center-to-center. The distributor body has the adjustment piece for fine-tuning the timing signal.
    Last edited by ExplosiveToaster; 2014.10.29 at 22:04 PM.
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

  24. #224
    pics of garage you're doing the work in?
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  25. #225
    Normal Member ExplosiveToaster will become famous soon enough ExplosiveToaster's Avatar
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    I need to pick up the garage before I can take pictures, there's clothing everywhere and the kitchen is a mess
    - Mike | My Photos | '16 VW Golf R | '87 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16

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