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Thread: CIS-E help.

  1. #1
    placeholder doppelfaust will become famous soon enough doppelfaust's Avatar
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    CIS-E help.

    My Fox has started acting up recently... Here's some info regarding the systems on the car.

    Ignition:
    replaced cap and rotor 1 year ago
    new plug wires
    new plugs
    MSD Blaster 2 coil

    Fuel:
    main fuel pump (high pressure) replaced 2 years ago
    fuel filter replaced same time
    in tank transfer pump is original
    CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)
    O2 replaced less than 6 months ago

    Air:
    K&N panel filter
    cut stock air box

    I'm having issues with cold start and a strange intermittent issue after she's running. I drive the car 5 days a week to work, the weekend I let her rest. This morning (for example) she cranked, cranked and cranked. After a short time I heard a "backfire" that seemed to come through the intake, I also noticed a small amount of smoke coming out from the corner of the hood (by the airbox). I let it sit, turned the key a few times to prime the fuel, cranked and the car came to life. When it did start the idle was very lopey, it seemed like there was excess fuel in the cylinders or something. I had to rev the car in order for the idle to finally mellow out. Now, this is new for today... I back out of my driveway and the car dies. It takes several tries but the car starts and I drive on my way. About three blocks from my house the car dies and it will not restart. Push it about a block to get into a parking lot and attempt several times to get it restarted. I get it started and the idle is inconsistent, if I keep the revs up slightly it seems to run with no issues. I release the throttle to let the car return to idle and it dies. Attempt several times to restart the car and it backfired like a gunshot. Call the wife and explain the situation and she comes with a gas can, we leave the car for about 10 minutes to get gas to see if I was out gas. We return, I put 2 gallons in and the car starts with no issue. I run to the gas station to fill up the tank, it only takes 3.5 gallons, so I had gas. The car gets me to work and I have no issues.

    Consistent problems I can diagnose but this one has me stumped. I've checked for major vacuum leaks or loose connections and can't find anything.

    The second issue is after running for several minutes, it takes me about 10 minutes to get to the freeway from my house. After being on the freeway for about 15 minutes my car will sometimes go into a "limp mode." I can't rev over 3,000 and throttle response is non-existent. After a few minutes it seems the car clears out whatever the issue was and the throttle response and revs seem to return to normal.

    I'm at my wits end, the plan is Megasquirt but that's not in the cards for a little while. If someone could puzzle this one over and just give me some ideas on where to look. I've got a DPR test harness, would it be worth while connecting this while starting? What numbers should I be seeing? I set the amerage at the DPR over the summer and adjusted timing and the car ran like a top. Could I rig up the test harness and my multimeter to monitor my amperage as I'm driving?

    Thanks for your help to anyone that can provide some insight!

  2. #2
    Normal Member en318ispdx is on a distinguished road en318ispdx's Avatar
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    Does it have a cold start valve?

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    placeholder doppelfaust will become famous soon enough doppelfaust's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by en318ispdx View Post
    Does it have a cold start valve?
    Yes.

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    Normal Member en318ispdx is on a distinguished road en318ispdx's Avatar
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    Quote: Originally Posted by doppelfaust View Post
    Yes.
    CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)

    CTS = Cold Tart Sensor?

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    Quote: Originally Posted by en318ispdx View Post
    CTS recently replaced (not Bosch, nor OEM)

    CTS = Cold Tart Sensor?
    Coolant Temp Sensor. Effectively the same idea.

  6. #6
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    Cold tarts usually just take your money and leave. They have no heart..

    but about your car problem. Yes, you can rig it to read while you drive. You just need longer wires a backfire out of the intake indicates a lean condition or a timing problem. Are your ignition components Bosch or OEM equvalent? If not, fix that. No need for shitty parts on your car and i have seen them cause problems many times.

    did you thoroughly check the intake boot and other things for possible vacuum leaks?

    the DPR current should read 10mA and fluctuating when the car is warm and idling.

    since you didnt mention the year of the car, I get to give you shit. So about your 78 audi fox....

    Anyway, start with that and report back. yo9u may find nothing of significance, but we need to eliminate the easy stuff.

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Rabbit 16v View Post
    Cold tarts usually just take your money and leave. They have no heart..

    but about your car problem. Yes, you can rig it to read while you drive. You just need longer wires a backfire out of the intake indicates a lean condition or a timing problem. Are your ignition components Bosch or OEM equvalent? If not, fix that. No need for shitty parts on your car and i have seen them cause problems many times.

    did you thoroughly check the intake boot and other things for possible vacuum leaks?

    the DPR current should read 10mA and fluctuating when the car is warm and idling.

    since you didnt mention the year of the car, I get to give you shit. So about your 78 audi fox....

    Anyway, start with that and report back. yo9u may find nothing of significance, but we need to eliminate the easy stuff.
    Thanks, its a 1988 Volkswagen Fox.

    I thoroughly checked the intake boot for leaks, when I first bought the car I went through and used Shoe Goo on any visible cracks, even if they were not all the way through the boot. Vacuum lines were replaced and are all in tact. Timing was set with a true top dead center, not from the crank. Cam position is correct, as well as the intermediate. I set timing to about 10*... When I originally set the DPR I set it at about 7ma.

    Ignition rotor and cap are Bosch, distributor is OEM. Wires and plugs are also Bosch. Obviously coil is NOT Bosch nor OEM.

  8. #8
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    Ok you mentioned that you put fuel in it and it started right away. did the problem stay away until you used up about 2 gallons of fuel?

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    Was just going to update this thread and saw your reply, I immediately filled the car after this happened. Problem didn't return.

    I wanted to add however, the warm running issue (no throttle response, won't rev past 3K) seems to be happening when I am low on gas. Could I have a dying transfer pump? I can clearly hear the high pressure pump, its not overly loud, sounds healthy...

  10. #10
    President, MK2 Society trip permit has a spectacular aura about trip permit has a spectacular aura about trip permit's Avatar
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    I would replace transfer pump. I have had the same issue in mk2s where when really low on fuel, while warm, it would have no real throttle response and like you mentioned wouldn't rev past 3k... As soon as you would have half a tank or more it would act "normal" again for the most part until low on fuel.

  11. #11
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    transfer pump.

  12. #12
    placeholder doppelfaust will become famous soon enough doppelfaust's Avatar
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    Excellent, I will pick one up.

  13. #13
    placeholder doppelfaust will become famous soon enough doppelfaust's Avatar
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    Transfer pump replaced, cold starts still suck but my freeway problem is gone.

    I have a sneaking suspicion its the coolant temperature sensor or thermotime switch. When it cranks it seems like its not getting fuel... Once the car is started it will drive sluggishly VERY briefly about 5 minutes into my drive, its almost like there is a gap from when the car switches between pulling mixture from the CTS and switches to the O2 sensor. Hopefully that makes sense...

  14. #14
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    have you double checked the DPR current? engine hot.

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    pop a test-light on the feed to the cold-start injector, should light up while the key is in the 'start' position.
    -Tyler-

  16. #16
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    Hey Chris, feel free to say I told you so. Found a crack on a medium sized vacuum line at the charcoal canister that connected directly to the intake boot... cut the line back to healthy rubber, reconnected and the cold start issue is gone.

  17. #17
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    I told you so ha!

    Glad you got it figured out

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    So... problem didn't go away. Today I was leaving to run to the store at work. Car started after repeatedly turning the key. Reved, ran for a few seconds and died. (kind of like Dan's truck) I noticed some liquid coming out of the control pressure actuator. It smelled like gasoline. Could I have a failing/failed CPA? What are the symptoms of a failed CPA? I finally got the car started after keeping the gas pedal down and revving the motor so the revs couldn't drop. Slowly let off the gas and the car idled, albeit slightly high (1200 or so).

  19. #19
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    did it run ok after it was warmed up?

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Rabbit 16v View Post
    did it run ok after it was warmed up?
    Same deal after work today. Wouldn't stay running. Started with gas pedal pegged. Slowly lowered revs to 2k and then down to idle. Idled at 1200 and ran with no issue. Ran fine after warming up for 5 minutes or so.

  21. #21
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    Control pressure actuator? Do you mean fuel pressure accumulator? your car does not have a control pressure regulator as it is CIS-E.

    Did you check the mA readings when it was warmed up?

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    Sorry, fuel pressure regulator... trying to find my DIMM so I can check mA.

  23. #23
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    Where is it leaking fuel from? The vacuum line? The casing?

  24. #24
    placeholder doppelfaust will become famous soon enough doppelfaust's Avatar
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    I feel like there is a communication breakdown... pictures will help.





    The item pictured is where the leak is coming from. It appears to be coming from the connector... I tried to connect my test harness but the car barely idled with it attached. I will try again with some light tomorrow, ran out of sun today...

  25. #25
    make car go faster guy Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v is a jewel in the rough Rabbit 16v's Avatar
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    Ok, thats the DPR. The fuel pressure regulator is the round jobbie just towards the front of the car in the last pic. fuel leaking from a dpr is pretty common and should be replaced for obvious reasons. That said, a leaking DPR will not likely cause your symptom. You see that banjo fitting between te DPR and the FPR? See how it has a raised round head? Those ones are units that have filter screens in them. the screens should be removed. Probably not your problem, but something to look at. I always remove the screens and put an 'X' on the head to indicate it has been done.

    Report back with DPR mA readings. Its possible that since you found the vacuum leak that the original setting was off..

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